<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Lent Week 1: Prayer</title>
	<atom:link href="http://kami.falseblue.com/2009/03/06/86/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://kami.falseblue.com/2009/03/06/86/</link>
	<description>Religion, Rethought, Redefined, Restored</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 15:08:13 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tsunami.No.Ai</title>
		<link>http://kami.falseblue.com/2009/03/06/86/comment-page-1/#comment-4499</link>
		<dc:creator>Tsunami.No.Ai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 20:47:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kami.falseblue.com/?p=86#comment-4499</guid>
		<description>I do agree that he eventually wants us to view him as a friend. I think he intended that to be the end goal: to have him as a constant companion. Problem I have is that a lot of young people today start out by going straight to that idea. They view god as a kind of imaginary friend they talk to when they have problems and in doing so create a god in their own minds that bears some symbolic reference to the trinity but is insubstantial in all other aspects. This view is not only an idolatry but also leaves one open to disappointment when the &quot;genie&quot; does not deliver. 

We must also not fall into a trap of viewing god as a friend that we can disagree with. He is our companion and friend yes, but we are not (in this life anyway since we are promised this to some extent in the life eternal) his equal. We can easily try and say that our friendship with god is the same as our friendship to each other. I would only say that we should view it as being the childhood friend of a king. We know them and can be intimate with them, but at the end of the day we but still conform to their will. It is easier that we love them and understand them that we conform, but we still sacrifice ourselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do agree that he eventually wants us to view him as a friend. I think he intended that to be the end goal: to have him as a constant companion. Problem I have is that a lot of young people today start out by going straight to that idea. They view god as a kind of imaginary friend they talk to when they have problems and in doing so create a god in their own minds that bears some symbolic reference to the trinity but is insubstantial in all other aspects. This view is not only an idolatry but also leaves one open to disappointment when the &#8220;genie&#8221; does not deliver. </p>
<p>We must also not fall into a trap of viewing god as a friend that we can disagree with. He is our companion and friend yes, but we are not (in this life anyway since we are promised this to some extent in the life eternal) his equal. We can easily try and say that our friendship with god is the same as our friendship to each other. I would only say that we should view it as being the childhood friend of a king. We know them and can be intimate with them, but at the end of the day we but still conform to their will. It is easier that we love them and understand them that we conform, but we still sacrifice ourselves.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gary Spear</title>
		<link>http://kami.falseblue.com/2009/03/06/86/comment-page-1/#comment-4498</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Spear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 15:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kami.falseblue.com/?p=86#comment-4498</guid>
		<description>Ben, I like that fact that you&#039;re writing blogs again! Keep it up.

Here are my reflections. I like your thinking and your questions. As you know, I lean a bit more &#039;high church&#039; than most church of christ folks. I enjoy having liturgy in my life and meditation prayer as part of my Daily Office, which is the summation of daily spiritual practices. And I also think that more impromptu prayers can be a valuable part of a Daily Office. I think we see examples of both in revealed theology/scripture. We see liturgy in the Psalms and we see more impromptu/personal prayers in Job, Paul and Moses whose interaction with God at the burning bush was very much a conversation, which I think prayer can be at times.

I do agree that we should be careful in seeing God as just a &#039;pal&#039; because the truth is that we should be filled with awe and reverence for Him. We don&#039;t do this well in America where our culture teaches us that we&#039;re all gods unto ourselves with our freedoms to make all the decisions about our life.

But I also think God wants us to view him as Friend. I think this is evidenced from the beginning in the Garden where He came to walk in the cool of the evening with His creation; man and woman. I think this is also shown in Jesus who as fully God and fully man came and walked in friendship with people. So &#039;pal&#039; doesn&#039;t sit well on my ears but &#039;friend&#039; sits well on my heart because I think Jesus used the language and presence of friendship. To me it&#039;s very Trinitarian: God held in reverent fear and awe on His throne, Jesus walking among us as savior and friend, and Spirit as our ever-present guide and helper. And this Trinitarian belief gives me space to pray in different ways and also to relate to God in broader ways. i.e. as Jehovah and as Friend.

Just my humble thoughts. Keep writing Ben! I like it!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, I like that fact that you&#8217;re writing blogs again! Keep it up.</p>
<p>Here are my reflections. I like your thinking and your questions. As you know, I lean a bit more &#8216;high church&#8217; than most church of christ folks. I enjoy having liturgy in my life and meditation prayer as part of my Daily Office, which is the summation of daily spiritual practices. And I also think that more impromptu prayers can be a valuable part of a Daily Office. I think we see examples of both in revealed theology/scripture. We see liturgy in the Psalms and we see more impromptu/personal prayers in Job, Paul and Moses whose interaction with God at the burning bush was very much a conversation, which I think prayer can be at times.</p>
<p>I do agree that we should be careful in seeing God as just a &#8216;pal&#8217; because the truth is that we should be filled with awe and reverence for Him. We don&#8217;t do this well in America where our culture teaches us that we&#8217;re all gods unto ourselves with our freedoms to make all the decisions about our life.</p>
<p>But I also think God wants us to view him as Friend. I think this is evidenced from the beginning in the Garden where He came to walk in the cool of the evening with His creation; man and woman. I think this is also shown in Jesus who as fully God and fully man came and walked in friendship with people. So &#8216;pal&#8217; doesn&#8217;t sit well on my ears but &#8216;friend&#8217; sits well on my heart because I think Jesus used the language and presence of friendship. To me it&#8217;s very Trinitarian: God held in reverent fear and awe on His throne, Jesus walking among us as savior and friend, and Spirit as our ever-present guide and helper. And this Trinitarian belief gives me space to pray in different ways and also to relate to God in broader ways. i.e. as Jehovah and as Friend.</p>
<p>Just my humble thoughts. Keep writing Ben! I like it!!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tsunami.No.Ai</title>
		<link>http://kami.falseblue.com/2009/03/06/86/comment-page-1/#comment-4493</link>
		<dc:creator>Tsunami.No.Ai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 02:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kami.falseblue.com/?p=86#comment-4493</guid>
		<description>Ryan, I agree that one must be careful with the idea of brainwashing. There is considerable evidence of people brainwashing themselves. I do not believe in those cases they had any true wisdom. I think the definite test of whether or not one has made themselves believe something and whether they have made considerable effort to understand what they believe is whether or not they put what they believe into practice. In other words, can they show the wisdom of what they believe or do they just parrot? 

Jake, thanks for the comment. I am concerned though. I do not believe &quot;being ok&quot; with thinking of God in a certain way is what we are called to do. We are called to find Truth, not just what we are comfortable with. Is the Father or the Son portrayed in any way in the Gospel as a &quot;Pal&quot;? I am unable to find any reference where they are not revered and worshiped and instead treated as a fellow human. I am not interested in what works for people. I am only interested in knowing Truth. Be careful you do not mistake relativism for absolutes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan, I agree that one must be careful with the idea of brainwashing. There is considerable evidence of people brainwashing themselves. I do not believe in those cases they had any true wisdom. I think the definite test of whether or not one has made themselves believe something and whether they have made considerable effort to understand what they believe is whether or not they put what they believe into practice. In other words, can they show the wisdom of what they believe or do they just parrot? </p>
<p>Jake, thanks for the comment. I am concerned though. I do not believe &#8220;being ok&#8221; with thinking of God in a certain way is what we are called to do. We are called to find Truth, not just what we are comfortable with. Is the Father or the Son portrayed in any way in the Gospel as a &#8220;Pal&#8221;? I am unable to find any reference where they are not revered and worshiped and instead treated as a fellow human. I am not interested in what works for people. I am only interested in knowing Truth. Be careful you do not mistake relativism for absolutes.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://kami.falseblue.com/2009/03/06/86/comment-page-1/#comment-4492</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 01:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kami.falseblue.com/?p=86#comment-4492</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not going to lie; some of this stuff went over my head, and some I didn&#039;t agree with, but overall I liked it.  My only disagreement is that maybe this works for you, but I&#039;m pretty ok with the God is my pal thing.  The one thing I have to remember if I&#039;m going to go at it from this perspective is that best friends stick together through bad and good.  It&#039;s not perfect, but it&#039;s what helps me.  I may change, I may stay the same, but you need to realize that different things work for different people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not going to lie; some of this stuff went over my head, and some I didn&#8217;t agree with, but overall I liked it.  My only disagreement is that maybe this works for you, but I&#8217;m pretty ok with the God is my pal thing.  The one thing I have to remember if I&#8217;m going to go at it from this perspective is that best friends stick together through bad and good.  It&#8217;s not perfect, but it&#8217;s what helps me.  I may change, I may stay the same, but you need to realize that different things work for different people.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://kami.falseblue.com/2009/03/06/86/comment-page-1/#comment-4475</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 20:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kami.falseblue.com/?p=86#comment-4475</guid>
		<description>A good read. :)

Sympathy points: I agree that the convention of praying to God like a genie is (a) widespread, and what I did too as a child, and (b) wholly inappropriate for the reasons you described. I remember thinking about this often when I walked back to my apartment at Christie&#039;s back in &#039;04 or &#039;05. I think it was because I discussed the point either with you or with Matt -- that a true Christian should never, ever think of the Almighty Creator as this genie who can be summoned when it is convenient and who can be counted on to do the praying person&#039;s bidding.

I also agree that, given a personal belief in God as the Almighty Creator, it is on the one hand laughable and on the other hand horrendous to think of the priests and pastors we all know too well who, like you described, get up in front of the congregation and deliver a &quot;speech&quot; which could hardly be called little more than Scripturally-guided rambling. I particularly liked your bringing it down to an earthly level of understanding by saying, &quot;Is this how you&#039;d want to talk on behalf of your congregation in front of the king? No? Then why do you do it in front of &lt;i&gt;the&lt;/i&gt; King?&quot;

Antagonistic points: the anecdote you described from The Way of the Pilgrim is uncomfortably similar to the psychiatric observation that there comes a point when a person tells a lie so many times that he begins to sincerely believe it is true. This is one specific example of the much broader category of psychiatric phenomena of belief, e.g. a child who is told from a young age that he is dumb may believe he is dumb and appear dumb to the outside world even if he has/had the potential to be brilliant, a child who is told that she is fat may believe it even if she was only ever-so-slightly chubby and she soon becomes unhealthily thin, a child who is told that he is ugly may see himself as ugly in the mirror even though others consider him to be average or even handsome.

The point is, if you are told by others or if you tell yourself enough times &quot;You/I am a sinner, you/I need salvation, etc.&quot; psychiatry suggests that you will eventually believe it to be true whether or not it actually is. That is to say, when you speak of &quot;chang[es]&quot; that are happening within you, you have to be careful to not confuse cognitive enlightenment with cognitive manipulation (a.k.a. brainwashing).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good read. <img src='http://kami.falseblue.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Sympathy points: I agree that the convention of praying to God like a genie is (a) widespread, and what I did too as a child, and (b) wholly inappropriate for the reasons you described. I remember thinking about this often when I walked back to my apartment at Christie&#8217;s back in &#8217;04 or &#8217;05. I think it was because I discussed the point either with you or with Matt &#8212; that a true Christian should never, ever think of the Almighty Creator as this genie who can be summoned when it is convenient and who can be counted on to do the praying person&#8217;s bidding.</p>
<p>I also agree that, given a personal belief in God as the Almighty Creator, it is on the one hand laughable and on the other hand horrendous to think of the priests and pastors we all know too well who, like you described, get up in front of the congregation and deliver a &#8220;speech&#8221; which could hardly be called little more than Scripturally-guided rambling. I particularly liked your bringing it down to an earthly level of understanding by saying, &#8220;Is this how you&#8217;d want to talk on behalf of your congregation in front of the king? No? Then why do you do it in front of <i>the</i> King?&#8221;</p>
<p>Antagonistic points: the anecdote you described from The Way of the Pilgrim is uncomfortably similar to the psychiatric observation that there comes a point when a person tells a lie so many times that he begins to sincerely believe it is true. This is one specific example of the much broader category of psychiatric phenomena of belief, e.g. a child who is told from a young age that he is dumb may believe he is dumb and appear dumb to the outside world even if he has/had the potential to be brilliant, a child who is told that she is fat may believe it even if she was only ever-so-slightly chubby and she soon becomes unhealthily thin, a child who is told that he is ugly may see himself as ugly in the mirror even though others consider him to be average or even handsome.</p>
<p>The point is, if you are told by others or if you tell yourself enough times &#8220;You/I am a sinner, you/I need salvation, etc.&#8221; psychiatry suggests that you will eventually believe it to be true whether or not it actually is. That is to say, when you speak of &#8220;chang[es]&#8221; that are happening within you, you have to be careful to not confuse cognitive enlightenment with cognitive manipulation (a.k.a. brainwashing).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
